Holding History…

I have been lucky… really lucky, I have been collecting Cups for a relatively short time, just a hair under 2 years. In that time I have acquired many wonderful Cups and have made many good friends. Like all collectors, one makes a list of what they are after and tries their best to find those items. On my wish list were Paul Fox Danny Dew and Charlie Miller Cups… over the past 2 months I have been lucky to be able to cross those off of my list… I am now holding history.

Why do I say that I am holding history? In my opinion the Paul Fox and Charlie Miller Cups have been the most influential in how Cups are designed today. Just look at all the Cups that have multiple beads, squat rounded tops and that are substantial in weight (true the Bertram Cups started the trend of heavy Cups, but so few were produced).

I am first to admit that I am not a Cup expert, I have however spent much time reading books and on the internet trying to learn all that I can about Cups and asking others what they know. Hopefully one day someone that is an expert will eventually write a book on the subject (hint, hint, Mr. Palmer and Mr. Biro), so I will make this statement; all that I write about these Cups is my understanding of their histories and I encourage any that can correct me or can add to my review please do so.

Paul Fox Danny Dew Type 2 Cups-

Just how old is the design of the Paul Fox Cups? It has been suggested that Paul Fox conceived his iconic design sometime in the late 1930’s (possibly influenced by Thermos brand bottle tops), spinning a set or two for his own use and showing them to a select few. His Cups were revolutionary, in that they appeared streamlined compared to other Cups of that day and created an almost perfect illusion of not being able to conceal their final load… the lacrosse ball. 

It was not until the end of the late 1950’s, early 1960’s, that the Paul Fox granted the rights to manufacture his creations to Danny Dew; who in turn contracted several metal workers throughout the years to make them for him to be sold retail through magic shops.

There have been many variations of the Paul Fox Cups since they were first made available to the magic community. It seems that they were kind of a work in progress… refinements made to the saddle design to accommodate the display of several balls, different materials that they were spun of and the weight of the Cups (maybe the influence of the Charlie Miller Cups).

It is guessed that 1000 or so of the Paul Fox Cups have been spun over a span of 11 to 15 years. The most common being the Type 2 design having a larger saddle and weighing more then its earlier versions. The set that I have is the Type 2 version, spun in copper which is also the most common metal that the Cups were spun in. I shared descriptions and photos of my Cups with Bill Palmer, who said based upon what he sees from the pictures, that they were probably spun sometime between 1965 and 1970, more then likely by Perigee, one of the spinners Danny Dew used.

I received the Paul Fox Cups in what I consider a pretty good condition… they are all the same size and shape, the mouth beads are fairly tight and they were free of any major dings or scratches… a good find if I say so myself. The Cups had developed different degrees of ageing that is the patina was slightly different from Cup to Cup. I could easily tell that they were originally polished to a high degree and that the difference in color was more then likely due to being stacked. I have given the Cups a careful cleaning and have been handling them regularly to encourage an even brown patina that most of us like. I am very happy as to how they are coming along.

I don’t think that I need to go into any long explanations as to how they perform; other then they feel perfect in my hand and are balanced quite well for rotating along their shoulder bead and tipping with a wand. They are designed to conceal a lacrosse ball, however the balls that I have on hand don’t quite fit completely. One of these days I must take them to a sporting goods store and find a set of ball that fit… there are many acceptable sizes for regulation lacrosse balls.

Three Cup Display:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory001.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory002.jpg

Saddle:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory006.jpg

Mouth Bead:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory007.jpg

Stacked:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory003.jpg

Final Load:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory004.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory005.jpg

The Charlie Miller Cups (It’s a man’s Cup)-

Sometime is the late 1950’s Ross Bertram designed and spun a set of Cups now known as the Bertram Cups. He made them specifically to conceal live baby chicks that he used for his final loads. The Cups needed to be heavy enough so that when the Cups were not in play, those loaded with baby chicks would not walk away. Laurie Ireland of Magic INC (a Chicago magic shop), was impressed with the Bertram Cups and asked if he could have a few made, to make a long story short… when he gave the number of Cups to be made to the spinner there was a bit of miscommunication, Laurie asked for X number of Cups to be made and the spinner assumed that he meant that number in sets, so the number of Cups multiplied by a factor of 3. Lets just say there were a lot made.

Ross Bertram was not impressed with the finished Cups that Laurie Ireland had made, he did not want his name associated with them. Ross found fault with the craftsmanship, the mouth bead was all wrong, there were lines spun into the Cup that should not be there (below the shoulder bead) and the overall shape of the Cup just did not follow the lines of the original. These could not be sold as Bertram Cups. Laurie being a businessman had to find a way to move these Cups… Again to make a long story short, Charlie Miller ended up indorsing the Cups, commenting on their weight as being “A man’s Cup” due to their weight and heft.

It is said that the Charlie Miller Cups have had the longest run of production of any set of Cups made. They were produced from the early 1960’s through the late 1970’s; during this time several metal workers have been used. Early production Cups have a rather tight mouth bead and the undesirable line was less pronounced. Later spun Cups became more distorted as time went on, mouth beads that were square in shape or left with large gaps (similar to what is seen on TF Phoenix Cups) and the line becoming deeper and larger. Possibly what has happened is that the form and tooling used to make the Cups had become deformed.

I have ended up with 2 sets of Charlie Miller Cups, a set in copper and a set that is nickel chrome over copper. Again I asked Bill Palmer if he could identify when my sets were made. He was of the opinion that they were probably spun in the late 1960’s to early 1970’s. The magician I purchased them from thought that they were circa 1970, because who he purchased them from identified them as such. None the less I am very happy with the sets that I have… closed mouth beads and a tolerable spin line.

The Charlie Miller Cups are truly “a man’s Cup,” they have a great heft to them. Curiously as I compared the copper set to the chromed set I noticed quickly that the chrome set seemed to weigh a lot less. Again I go to Bill Palmer and ask why this would be; his theory is that the chrome set was probably highly polished to remove spinning lines creating a good base Cup for the chroming process. To me this makes a lot of sense, I can see the difference in spinning lines between the 2 sets.


Three Cup Display:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory008.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory014.jpg

Saddle:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory012.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory017.jpg

Mouth Bead:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory013.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory021.jpg

Spin Lines:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory022.jpg

Stacked:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory009.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory016.jpg

Final Load:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory010.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory011.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory019.jp

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory020.jpg

Bonus Cup, -

I am including photos of the Laurie Ireland Cups so that you can see the lines below the shoulder beads are pretty much the same as is on the Charlie Miller Cups. These Cups are pretty much from the same era.

Three Cup Display:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory023.jpg




Saddle:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory026.jpg

Mouth Bead:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory027.jpgSt

Spin Lines:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory029.jpg

Stacked:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory024.jpg

Final Load:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory025.jpg

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/BCSDenver/Cups/HoldingHistory028.jpg

As always thanks for looking and please add any comments you might have. I would like to thank the following people; Bill Palmer for answering all my questions, the Zimmerman Family for the Paul Fox Cups, Geoffrey (levity) for the Charlie Miller Cups and Rannie (The Boss) for the Laurie Ireland’s Cups.

Bruce,

Congrat's on the cups. They are truly wonderfull. Thanks for the pics and the excellent review. You are indeed a very lucky man.

Etienne

Wow, thanks for sharing those cups with us all Bruce.  I am so happy for you  
I think the chrome makes them look like much bigger cups you know...

The lines are very evident from your great photos too, as are those lovely tight mouth beads...

Those bright yellow balls REALLY " P - O - P " with that great patina too!

I love the way you always manage to unearth some annecdotes and little known facts about cupsin your reviews Bruce.

Bri

Thanks guys… Yes I am very lucky to have them, please don’t take my anecdotes as gospel… though I do try my best.

I found some lacrosse balls this morning that fit the PF Cups perfectly. The Charlie Miller Cups are really fun to look at closely; their shape is kind of bizarre when you really get down to it. I have also had fun comparing them to the TH Phoenix and RNT2 Phoenix 2 Cups. I just need to find a set of Bertram Cups and I could go full circle.

Bruce

Hello, simply splendid his article on the history, as a lover of the cups I thank you for your information that has made me feel very happy, Thank you from Barcelona Spain

Bruce, this is wonderful! I love cups and magic history, so this is fantastic! I love old copper cups, and I am "digging" those Paul Fox cups and Charlie Miller Cups  . I think a lot of people think the spinning lines look bad, but I don't think they do; I think that they add something to the cups. Very nice find! Are you planning on making boxes for these? I think that'd look wonderful!


       Mike

Sofartes… I am glad that you enjoyed my review; they are fun to write and share.

Mike… I have to agree with you, some spin lines look good and do add character to the Cups. They all have a great feel to them, even the aluminum Ireland’s Cups… though I don’t much care for aluminum. I suspect that they feel good because of their size. I will eventually make some boxes for them, once the weather changes, it is much too cold to work in the garage.

Take care,
Bruce

Bruce,

Back already?

Etienne

Etienne… Yes, now I need another week to rest from my week vacation… at least this time we had no kids with diapers or strollers to contend with.

Bruce

I know what you mean, you go to get some rest but you will come back stressed.

Etienne

Here are a couple of things to consider about all the cups mentioned.

1) The Laurie Ireland cups were originally spun in steel, by Laurie Ireland, himself. I have his cups. He farmed the cups out to a number of different spinners. He finally settled on aluminum, because it's a cheap metal.

2) Ross Bertram actually produced many sets of his cups. He spun and polished most of the sets himself. The story about the spinner misunderstanding whether Laurie Ireland wanted X number of sets of Bertram cups or X number of cups is probably not true.  Laurie Ireland died in 1954, which would have probably put him out of the picture at the time this controversy over the Magic, Inc. cups took place.

3) Only about 50 sets of the PF/DD Type 1 cups were produced. Paul Fox did not like the bottoms of the cups and asked Danny to have the chucks remanufactured. Almost all of the cups Danny produced were made by Perigee. In fact, this is also true of the candy dishes as well.

4) The precipitating event that caused the Paul Fox cups to be assigned to Danny Dew was the threatened appearance of the "Slydini" cups that were to be manufactured by Connie Haydn. Slydini didn't want to put his name on them, as he did not do the cups and balls. Fifty sets were allegedly contracted by Tannen's. Of those, six are still known to exist. The Haydn cups were smaller than the Paul Fox cups.

The situation with Tannen's, and to a lesser extent, with Magic, Inc. was that people would ask them for the things they saw other people using. If they couldn't get them with a good enough discount to afford to resell them, then they would have someone else manufacture them. Tannen's reputedly had a small cadre of buyers who purchased everything that Ken Brooke manufactured, so Tannens could produce the same items and rewrite the instructions.

It would be remiss to leave Petrie - Lewis and Brema out of a discussion of historical cups. If P&L had not gone bankrupt, their products, ALL of them, would still be manufactured today. And Brema supplied cups to a very large number of shops from roughly the turn of the century up until after WW II.

Bill… Thanks for all the history you share with us; I eagerly await for the time you release a book on the C&Bs.

Thanks,
Bruce

I'm not sure when it will appear, but I'm working on the photos right now. I'll be posting some preliminary ideas about the real origins of the trick very soon.

it's very nice Bruce.... congratz

Cheers
Andre

The concept of holding history is one that most collectors experience from time to time, and not just in the field of magic history.

For example, a friend of mine owned the first Fender electric bass. He bought it from the Fender representative when he passed through Houston. My friend hated the instrument, because he preferred the sound of the upright bass instead. So he stuck the Fender under his bed and let it sit. Later he let a friend borrow it. No telling where it is now. However, when you figure that the fellow who owned it played in the "house" band for one of the biggest C&W dance halls in Texas, that bass must have entertained a lot of people.

And so it is with cups.

Sometime when you have an hour or so to spend, go to the museum and look at the page with the cups of the greats. Take a look, for example, at the cups that belonged to J. Elder Blackledge. Blackledge was a society magician from Indianapolis. He performed FIVE times for Franklin D. Roosevelt. The cups and balls was one of his signature effects. The chances are that Blackledge performed that routine for Roosevelt at least once. And that would lead me to believe that Roosevelt actually saw THESE VERY CUPS!

What if the President asked to examine the cups? Then he would have touched them. The mind boggles at the possibilities.